Episode 11 – The one about how to fix your leaky marketing funnel

how to fix a leaky marketing funnel

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In This Episode

How many times have you read a piece of copy, and wondered how on earth the writer managed to read your mind?

It’s like they have a camera pointing straight into the depths of your amygdala, and they’re speaking directly to you, your darkest fears and your unspoken desires?

Then, how many times have you tried to replicate that impact, only to get stuck because you have no idea what to say to make that level of emotional connection with your buyers?

What if there was a way to shortcut the process of understanding what really drives your clients to buy…and gain deep insight into the minds of your prospects, without having to analyse every single one of them individually? 

The good news is, today’s guest has figured out exactly how to do just that.      

Jody Robertson is a retired military pilot turned direct response copywriter who uses her own Primal Persuasion system to create high-converting marketing funnels for ambitious entrepreneurs.

Episode Highlights:

  • How military persuasion techniques are the secret to writing winning bullets  
  • The real reason why your funnel isn’t generating more sales for your business
  • Russel Brunsen’s little-known secret to online business success (it’s nothing to do with your mindset or expertise)
  • The overwhelming fear that stops talented online business owners from understanding what’s really going on inside their funnels 
  • What is Primal Persuasion and how can it help you write irresistible sales copy? 
  • How understanding ‘life traps’ will give you an exponential edge when it comes to connecting with and converting your audience 
  • 3 of the most common life traps that help you delve understand the collective mindset of your market and make more sales 
  • What sequins taught Jody about why persuasion strategies should ONLY be used for good

Beg, Steal & Swipe These Resources:

Jody’s Resources

You can find out more about Jody and her Primal Persuasion System via her website www.funnelcopyexperts.com 

And get onto her new email list by sending her an email at jody@funnelcopyexperts.com

Grab a copy of Reinventing Your Life by Dr Young and Dr Klosko 

Grab a copy of Robert Cialdini’s book, Influence


My FREE Resources

My Email Story Generator that helps you write binge-worthy stories that get you paid 

The Rawthority Playbook –  Discover a simple, step-by-step process to craft a unique origin story that converts lukewarm leads into obsessed mega-fans  

Check out www.wordistry.co.uk to get more info on how Anna can help your business

Check out the episode transcript


Welcome to the show, I’m super excited to dive in and find out more about your journey and your fascinating copywriting process.


Yeah, I’m super excited to be here.


You followed a really interesting path to where you are today. Can you tell us a bit about how you went from flying military planes to writing direct response copy?


Sure. Well, I mean, first of all, I’ve always loved to write. So I’ve been writing fiction for a long time, which is not copywriting, obviously. But you know, I don’t have any problems sitting down for hours at a time and writing, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s good, I love it. So I, I started getting close to my time to get out of the military. And I realized I really didn’t have a plan for what I was going to do when I grew up. So I kind of got online and started looking for something, if that makes sense. Yeah,


I think I did the same thing when I have my children. It’s just, it’s too hideous.


Yeah. Yeah. And the thing about flying now that you bring that up is, you know, it’s, I don’t want to say it’s lazy. It’s a lot of hard work, but you’re doing something you’d love to do. So to start thinking about, what are you going to do after that makes it really challenging.


And she, my sister in law is a commercial pilot, so she flies have holiday holiday flights. And I’m always amazed at the number of years and hours and the expensive training to become a pilot when you’re a commercial pilot. And then from what she says to it, and I’m sure this isn’t a true reflection of what she actually does. She said that she kind of twiddles a few knobs at takeoff and landing. And then the rest of the time, she’s just sitting there not doing an awful lot. It feels like a cushy job, which is probably quite hard to replace. But obviously that’s my limited experience of




There’s probably a lot more to it than she’s making out.


Yeah, well, we probably but I mean, it is it’s a good fun job. You can’t really complain about it. That’s the thing. And so I was kind of looking at this. Well, what am I gonna do now? 


So I started getting online and looking and I found these websites like Pat Flynn, Smart Passive income and and a guy named Joel Runyon, who ran unpossible HQ. And they started talking about how you can make money with a blog. And I thought, that’s great. So I kind of I got myself a domain name. And I started using their guides through their affiliate links to create this blog. And, and it was just like a slippery slope, where I started to learn about online marketing. And, and copywriting in general, because and copywriting really connected with me because I love to write already. And that’s kind of where that jumped from becoming a pilot to becoming a direct response copywriter came from. 


that’s really interesting, actually, because I started off my first venture into online business was also writing a blog. So I did what most mums with a who are kind of bored of playing toddler games do, they start a mom blog. And so I was writing this blog and learning social media marketing, learning, SEO and all that kind of thing. And what I very quickly realized was that there is an awful lot of competition on these blogs, to try and make money from either pay per click advertising, but you need millions or billions of hits on your website to make any money, or doing kind of promotional content. But the big brands will pay mom bloggers 10 pounds to promote, like a microwave chicken product. And all these moms will be jumping up and raising their hands to take all these advertising opportunities. And I just thought, God, this is way too much work for that level of competition. And that amount of money. It just didn’t seem worth it to me. And I know, I know, some people do manage to go on and make it into a lucrative living, but I kind of started there and then thought there was got to be a better way to make a decent living from writing online.


Yeah, yeah.


It totally does. And did you did you know anything about direct response before you got into blogging and before you discovered Pat Flynn and Smart Passive Income?


Nothing. I knew nothing about this world at all.


It’s amazing is it when you discover it because it’s like this whole amazing universe opens up in front of you and nobody in the real world. Understand. what it is we do, which is


I’ve been doing it for years now, and I still can’t explain it.


So other any experiences you can take from your time as a pilot in the mirror the military to help you write stronger sales copy?


I think that in general, from the military, you know, you’re constantly especially as an officer, you’re constantly being mentored by leaders. And there’s, you know, varying levels of leadership and leaders like anywhere, like in any business organization, but there’s certain ones that are highly persuasive. And when you look back at that, you can see how they just naturally person what’s persuade people? And you know, after 20 years of seeing that, I think that I bring some of that with me. And I’m not sure you know how to even quantify that. Except, there’s just a way about a leader and the persuasion that does translate to copy. And I think it just naturally comes out as you right.


I’m sure, yeah, I’ll


show you over the course of 20 years, just by process of osmosis, you would have just absorbed all of that amazing persuasion ability, which is I’m kind of jealous about.


Well, yeah. And then, you know, I thought about this question two, bullet writing what you would not expect, I think there’s something that I take away from the military that is directly has directly impacted my ability to write fascinations or bullets.


So how was the connection come from?


as an officer, I had to write performance reports on the people that I was in charge of. And I also had to write awards packages, trying to get them awards, so they could get promoted. And that is really just a sheet of one line bullets, that goes to some type of board and people look over them, and you have maybe 20 bullets to convince this board to either promote someone or, or to win an award. So you get really good at putting as much impact as you can into that 20 into those 20 bullets, and trying to get your your people their awards and their promotions. So So


for people who are listening, JD is basically the bullet Queen, and a member of a copywriting community. And Jody, basically kicks everyone’s butt every time they do a bullet writing competition. And I think everybody’s a bit scared to enter. And Jodie says her


years of writing all those reports, it’s obviously served you well. Yeah, I


think it was a huge help. And my ability to take something big, like what did you do all year long, and throw it into one highly impactful statement?


Yeah. And I guess the stakes would have been really high for the people whose lives and careers you were you were impacting. So the pressure was on?


Yeah, definitely.


So he previously ran other online businesses, as you mentioned, and what was your biggest takeaway from your time as a blogger, and as an entrepreneur selling your own products?


Yeah, I kind of became a professional. I call myself a professional, shiny object chaser in the beginning, because you’re just trying to figure out everything, right? Yeah. And what I noticed, and I think is valuable for everyone is, I did a lot of things, and I failed a lot of things. And you should never really walk away from a failure going, I failed. And I think even as an instructor pilot, I tried to bring that or tried to bring that forward as there’s no such thing as a perfect flight. And we’re going to go out and we’re going to do some stuff, we’re going to help each other out. And then we’re going to land and talk about the things we did wrong and that’s going to make us stronger. So you know, I went from this spending a week trying to learn to build a WordPress site from for my first blog and then I found out about these guys who were making niche websites. So I created my own niche websites taking that that piece that I learned from building world WordPress blogs, and now that I’m trying to make content so now I’m learning about copywriting and making good content. And then I realized I need to get people to that blog. So now I have to learn about SEO. And and then I learned about people who are buying and selling websites. Well that sounds really great, right? I don’t have to build all this stuff anymore. I can just buy them so I learned to negotiate website deals and I learned to to improve website copy. And I mean it just kind of rolls into this talent stack you’re creating


on the fly. Yeah, it sounds like we’ve been on such a similar journey. All of that stuff all the all the memories like having screaming back I remember trying to like watching YouTube videos and reading blogs about how to build a site on WordPress and I wrote my first ever WordPress site. I made the fatal error of signing up to wordpress.com instead of wordpress.org and it could be 250 pounds and hassle of getting my refund. What I was like


If I had had a domain name on wordpress.org, or whatever it was that I’d never got to use, because they did the wrong thing.


So, you know, since then I’ve actually built maybe four more websites. And having been through that whole nightmare journey of knowing absolutely nothing about building a website to then go back. I’ve done this loads of times now. And you can pretty much chuck them together in a few hours. But the learning curve is huge. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it’s funny. All of that just reminds me so much of everything that I did in the beginning as well. Yeah. You qualified as a click funnel certified partner, which is a serious stamp of approval in the world of direct response marketing. What would you say are some of the key ingredients to a winning funnel that you learned from Russell Brunson?


Yeah, that program was pretty big thing. In its time, it was kind of like getting the back end access to the, to Russell’s trainings. And it was, I’m glad I did it. I really went in there wanting to improve my copy and understand how funnel works more than ever, you know, building funnels for people. But I think there’s a couple things that people overlook when it comes to their funnel, how important their back end offering is, is really one of the main things and what I mean by back end offer, you know, you’ve got for those who may not know, you’ve got your front end offer your main thing you thought of selling like, say, I’m going to sell diet pills, right. And that’s my front end offer. But then what once you go to like the upsell would be your back end offer. And maybe you’re selling you know, videos on how to get six pack abs or something. And that’s your back end offer. And the money, the real power is the money you make off that back end offer. So Russell talks about that front end, offer finances, your advertising, and your ability to outspend your competition is what’s going to make you succeed. So anything you really make extra is going to be on that upsell or back end offer. If that makes sense.


Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And I think most people probably do miss out on that opportunity. They think that the thing that they’re trying to sell is where the money is gonna come from. And they maybe don’t necessarily see that as a loss leader, that is then going to translate into bigger purchases or repeat business further down the line. And actually, I’ve been working with a client who is is kind of convinced that all of the sales needs to come off a single webinar. And the idea for them of making offers on the back end, and using email marketing is completely alien to them. And it’s always taken a lot of education to say some show that the long term relationship that you build with these people is actually going to be where the real money is, and how you’re going to scale this thing. So that totally makes sense.


Oh, yeah, I mean, he even goes so far as saying, you know, that entire first product, you put all that money into advertising, and then you rely on your Ascension model, after that, you’re essentially model your your lineup of products afterwards and your lifetime value of your customer to finance your business and to make your money.


So would you say that the best thing to do then if if you were to take Russell’s approach would be to start off with a low ticket offer that you’re running your paid traffic to? And then stair step people up to a higher ticket offer? Or would you go in with the high ticket offer and then just sell them repeatedly? The lower priced product


in the back end? Or a mixture of all of that?


I think it would depend on the product. It’s really, you know, it depends on the business. It’s very dependent on that kind of thing. But yeah, I mean, if you’ve got a like, he loves to start with free plus shipping offers just a book that’s free plus shipping, something like that, just to get that name that he knows. But he knows his numbers. And that’s another thing, you know, startups and new business people don’t understand is they don’t have their numbers. Russell knows from the beginning how much it’s going to cost to put that person in his funnel and how much he’s going to make over their entire lifetime. So the more data you have, the better.


And I think a lot of people as well, I think they’re just scared of looking at the numbers they’re scared of even digging in at that granular level, especially a lot of the clients I work with tend to be creatives and visionaries. So they’re really 20,000 foot thinkers that just don’t want to be scrambling around the weeds trying to pull out the numbers. So if you were that kind of person, would you say that the best thing to do then is to Just outsource that whole data analytics, looking at all the numbers to somebody else. Or would you say it’s important as the expert of the influencer, to have a really tight grip on all that stuff yourself,


I think they should understand the basic numbers. And if they’ve had the money to outsource the analytics, and they can just be handed a report, and that’s great. But it’s kind of scary just to be out there and not really know how much money you have coming in, that’s really yours and how much really needs to go somewhere else.


I’m a total control freak. So I couldn’t. And I always say, I nerd out on going into going into the analytics bit. So I kind of can’t understand when people don’t want to because you I personally feel like you’re operating blind. And then that would really terrify me.


Yeah, yeah, it’s like that, you know, I’m kind of different as in I don’t like doing the numbers work, but I want to know the numbers. So I would be more of the person to outsource that to someone else. Give me a report once a week or once a month and and then I can make educated decisions on how many Facebook ads can I buy? At what point do I need to turn those Facebook ads off? You know, or whatever method of advertising you’re using.


So as well as being a funnel magician, you also write conversion copy using a method you call primal persuasion, which sounds exciting, just from the title.


Can you walk us through how


primal persuasion works? And what is the impact? Would you apply it to your copy?


Yes. So primal persuasion is a idea that I got from watching a lecture from a man named Paris and propolis, in Paris was talking about how to dig deep into your market psychology had it basically uncovered the need behind the need. So you can really target stories that resonate with your market. 


So I started digging into this concept that Paris talked about in a book called reinventing your life. And it was written by Dr. Young and Dr. Costco. And their research was all about relationships. They were psychologists to help people with relationships, and they started noticing there were just certain people that would come in, that would keep falling for the same problems over and over again, like they desperately wanted to be loved. But they kept only being attracted to people who were emotionally unavailable. And they call this a life trap. That this just you just continually doing the same thing over and over again, even though you, you probably even know you’re doing it, but you can’t stop. And they, they got to dig into this. And they found this research on what was called schemas. And now, a schema is basically a coping mechanism we develop as children, when we face, they use the word tragedy. But I think that really, it’s just adversity, and every child kind of faces those things different and develop coping mechanisms. For example, let’s say you have parents that are hypercritical a child will develop a coping mechanism to to really start blaming themselves and try harder and harder and harder. So they don’t. So they impress their parents, right. And they will develop these coping mechanisms that kind of turned into this schema of unrelenting standards. And these schemas really protect a kid in their psyche, because you know, a child is not very highly developed, they don’t see the world in the big picture, they see the little picture. So they develop these coping mechanisms. But we never let go of those coping mechanisms. We keep using them in life, even when they don’t serve us anymore. So when you start looking at your market, you can start finding these schemas in your market where certain things really resonate. And you can tell stories to those those life traps and schemas. Does that make sense? Yeah,


that’s really interesting. Actually. You’ll have to we’ll have to, we’ll have to put a link to the book in the show notes. And I’m going to go and get a copy because I’m fascinated by that kind of that kind of thing. sounds super interesting. So when it comes to looking at the market, how would you go about it? identifying what the main schema is that’s influencing that particular market. So from my perspective, taking this, looking at it from the outside in, I would sort of say, well, surely, your market is a group of people. And the core emotional driver of the schema underneath their behavior is going to be very dependent on the individual. So would you say that when a person presents with a problem that they all tend to be driven by the same underlying fear within an entire market? Or would this be a case of looking at your avatar and then and then saying, Well, I’m only going to talk to this one individual, and it’s going to draw in all the people that are dealing with this particular schema?


I think what you’ll find you’re very right. Humans are very complicated. A human in general is very complicated. I myself, as I started learning about these schemas, you know, I start going, Oh, that’s me. That’s me. Oh, that one’s Me, too. So you’re, the average person is going to have a mix of these schemas. And, you know, when I talk about these schemas, I tend to talk about it. Like the psychologist, do you want a very yes or no kind of sounding way. And like the worst case possible scenario, but the fact is that a schema will run from one to 10, right? So I suffer a little bit from this unrelenting standard schema. So I showed up to this podcast with a book of notes, all my slides and everything, hoping that I was going to be able to refer to them and not mess up at all right. But that is really nothing compared to someone who is like on a level 10, who, you know, they just they can’t relax, they can’t let go, they probably would never even do the podcast, necessarily without practicing, and paying someone to come in and coach them, you know what I’m saying? Yeah, so when you look at your market, you’re going to find a mix of schemas, for sure. But when you really start digging in and looking at your avatar close, you’re probably going to find, okay, yeah, there’s a mix of everything in here. But you know, abandonment, schema, deprivation, social exclusion, those are all three types of schemas, those are really big players in my market. So what story should I be telling that really brings in all those three, or two or five, you know, you, you’re gonna have to do the research. Unfortunately, Primal persuasion is not necessarily a magic bullet. It’s just a way to really refine your avatar and your research that you’ve already done your market research that you’ve already accomplished.


It definitely it would, I can absolutely see how it would have a huge impact on the power of your copy, because a lot of a lot of what people put out into the world is very surface level. And yes, you’re talking to a problem. But it’s it’s just the way the problems presenting itself on the surface. And so it has much more impact if you can really drill down into what’s going on underneath. Why don’t we pick three of them to give everyone a taste? And then I know you have, you’re putting together a an ebook, which will walk everyone through this so we can link to where they can get hold of it? Or if it’s if it’s not ready yet, and I can maybe stick your email address in the in the show notes. And they can get in touch with you for when it’s ready. Would that work?


Okay, we can do all of the above. Okay, so why don’t you choose your favorite three, and then you can, you can explain the best ways to leverage those.


Okay. So, I have a couple for sure that are important. And you’ll see why here in a second. The first one is the defectiveness schema. And the basic concept of the defective defectiveness schema is the quote would be I’m not lovable. So when you’re looking at your market for that one, you’re looking for anyone who feels like they’re just fundamentally unlovable. And as I tell you these questions, you’re going to see why you really it’s not when you look at your avatars, it can’t be a surface level look, you have to really be able to get in their heads and that comes from really doing the work and doing the research and even talking to people in your market


is actually that’s my favorite part of the the the process is getting on the phone with people and also when I speak to clients and I say sir, would you mind if I if you get me the phone numbers of some of your your buyers? They kind of look at me like oh my god, do you actually want to talk to people? Yes, right.


That’s great. I’m gonna have to hire you to do that for me.


I think I’m just really nosy.


That’s awesome. Okay, so, yeah, you’re gonna, you’re gonna do what you just did, and you’re gonna get on the phone, and you’re gonna really understand them and you’re gonna, and you’re going to think about their answers. And for the defectiveness schema, you’re going to get the feeling that they’re fundamentally unlovable this, and this is how they feel, this isn’t who they really are necessarily, you know, they feel like they’re fundamentally unlovable, they feel unworthy of love, and they’re afraid of love so much, it’s difficult to, to let people close to them. Let me start that over. They feel unworthy of love. And they’re afraid to love so much that it’s difficult to believe that people close to them value them or, or love them back and they expect to be rejected.


Would you say this, this schema is more likely to appear in the relationship niche over others? Or can this schema present itself in different ways in all sorts of other niches? Because listening to what you’re saying it, the first thing that screams to me is that it’s going to be really related to the dating niche, but does it apply across the board.


That’s the interesting thing about this one, because even in Paris, when I learned this from Paris on propolis, his, his quote was, everything we sell is about defectiveness. So I’ve actually got a list here of things you can ask that probably go more into the marketing, but I see where what I’m saying would lead you to believe that it’s more of a, of a dating niche problem. But almost everyone suffers from this defectiveness schema on some level. And it’s really the basis of copywriting in general. Because when you start looking at the stories that work for this, it’s the standard problem, agitation solution. You know, you make them feel like they’re kind of failing, and, and verify what they already think, because they feel like they’re defective. And then you get and then you throw them a rope and give them salvation. And that’s really kind of a lot of copywriting right there and selling a lot of products.


Kind of it kind of sounds evil when


you Well, I mean, you know, this can be used for good or evil. I like that it’s for good. Because if you’ve got a good product, you need to get into someone’s hands, they’re gonna fight you to give you their money, even if they need it.


It’s to read child Dinis book and persuasion. It’s not the name of the book. I read shell Dinis book. And he said that everything that he put into the book that came with a caveat that it could be used for good and for evil, but he really hope that only people who wanted to do good in the world would actually take his lessons and apply them to their life. So I mean, I guess the same is true with with sales, you can use all of this stuff to sell terrible products. And but you hope that whatever you’re writing copy for is not one of those products.


Right? Well, yeah, I mean, hopefully, that your products not too, but I also hope that my copy is so much better than the bad people that I just, you know, then I’m selling the good product, you know, that it’s my, it’s my response, it’s almost my responsibility to be as good at persuasion as possible. To do good. I know this kind of a crazy way to wrap it around and convince myself maybe, but no, I


totally agree. I actually, I, when I first started out, I had to, I had an experience with a kind of snake oil guru. And it really shaped my attitude to the people that I want to work with, as well. I see so many people, and you will as well, like all these gurus that actually don’t have anything of any value to teach. But because they’ve built a big Instagram following or wherever they’re up displaying their influence. And they’re just taking people money, so like an impossible dream, and they know it. And so I I’m pretty careful about vetting the people that I work with to make sure that I am not helping those types of people take money off their clients, because I don’t think it’s there.


Yeah. Yeah, it always reminds me of this story. When I was little I stayed at my grandma’s a lot. And, and I saw this thing on TV and oh my god, it looked like the greatest thing ever. You’re putting sequins on clothes, or whatever I don’t know is this little punch tool. And it looked like the greatest thing ever. And my grandma bought it and I waited my six weeks to get it because you know, used to have to wait for things right? It came and it was just this crappy piece of plastic that wouldn’t do anything. And I think back on that I was super disappointed. But I think about my grandma who worked hard in a factory for money, and how that money was just wasted. And I don’t ever want to be selling products like that.


Yeah, go to pilgrim. It’s terrible, isn’t it? My children? Yeah. They watch all these, the adverts on TV for children’s toys in particular. Like they know exactly what they’re doing. And they know that the toys that they’re selling are a load of junk. And so I don’t actually let my children watch adverts on TV. Even like, me, you do this for a living, you write up but why can’t we watch adverts? Because your little brains are too small to process the information.


Right? Exactly.


Did you want to move on to the second schema?


Oh, yeah. So the second let’s go back to the unrelenting standards schema, because I think this will come in a little bit better than for the marketing aspect of this. The unrelenting standard schema, basically, they never feel like they’re good enough. And they they play success of infamous emphasis on status and money, achievement, beauty, order recognition. And they will sacrifice all their happiness, health and sense of accomplishment for those things, even the relationships. The other neat thing about that not neat, necessarily, but the interesting thing about it is they also become very judgmental and rigid in their standards for other people. Things you can ask them, or things you can think about when you’re looking at that this avatar is, do they think they have to be the best? Do they feel like they’re never good enough? Do they need to maintain perfect order look good at all times. Maybe they don’t have any time to relax or maintain personal relationships. They feel like they deserve strong criticism. And they have no problem giving other people strong criticisms, criticisms, criticism as well. And wealth and status is very important. So you’ll find that you know, in a lot of markets, but it shows up a lot in health and beauty finance, the pickup world. You get that that feeling of keeping up with the Joneses. And why this one is interesting is because the unrelenting standard schema is the key to your back end sales.


Okay, that’s interesting.


Yeah. So think about it think about. We can kind of talk about several different things here. Hopefully, I’m not going off on a tangent. But think about you have a think about you have a fitness product. Okay, so one group of people who want that, let’s say it’s a, we can go a lot of different directions with a fitness product, right? But let’s say we want to address this unrelenting standard schema. First of all, it’s not going to be good enough, hey, let’s lose 10 pounds and feel better about ourselves, right? We want to be the CrossFit World Champion with this fitness product, in order to do this unrelenting standard. So you’re going to want to frame it more that way. And then, okay, they’re going to buy the product, but they want to be the best ever world. CrossFit champions. So your upsell is going to be you know, that 10 techniques, the best. Yeah, I don’t know, I’m just making it up right now. The test the 10 techniques that the world champion CrossFit people do every year, and how you can beat them at their own game,


that you’re up, see how how gamified would really appeal to this group of people as well having some kind of leaderboard or something so that people can publicly display the fact that they’ve


been somehow like that, let’s get to work on this product.


is probably because this will totally appeal to me. I think, what if my husband listens to this, he’ll be he’ll be screaming in the background going, Oh, my God, that’s my wife.


That’s awesome. So, but we all do we all have, we may not be a number 10 on the unrelenting standard, but we like getting the Hey, the pat on the back the good job, right? Should we most of us is like well, are like, great, let me lose that 10 pounds, but I also want that six pack abs. So you put that six pack abs on the upsell. Even if there’s not some type a level 10 unrelenting standards person, that’s still what drives your upsells no matter who you’re talking to.


Fascinating actually, you can use this not just for the messaging side of thing, but actually for the product creation side of things as well.


Yeah. Yeah. So but if you want to talk


to to, to to move on to the third one.


Yeah, we can use the same example. Let’s talk about now the same exercise program, but maybe a new mom who wants to lose weight Wait, right? Yeah. So let me now then again, people get so sensitive nowadays, and I’m getting ready to use words that would be considered maybe bad. So I’m not calling anyone a martyr.


But the nice snowflakes listening pleasure is


  1. So let’s say we have a new mom. And I think that a lot of women fall into this subjugation schema. And the subjugation schema is about kind of being a martyr. It’s kind of like taking care of everyone else and not taking care of yourself. I don’t I think martyr may be the the word that sets people off. But it’s really about feeling like you have to take care of everyone else first. Basically, they sacrifice their own needs and desires the sake of others. It’s very common the parent, parent market, the pet market, religion, it’s in family type products, like buy something for your family, which cereal Are you going to buy? Which, you know, the cereal company is telling you that? Oh, well, if you’re a good mom, you don’t want the sugary cereal, right? Or if you’re a good mom, you want this fun? Pink cereal over here, that’s full sugar. So


my children what’s on the TV and spend the rest of the day running around the house screaming and drawing on the walls?


Yeah. So I mean, you’ve got this fitness product, and you want to sell it to the new mom, you want to recognize their guilt, you know, you want to recognize that? Well, we know you just had this baby and you feel bad about taking care of yourself. But you know, you gotta you gotta flip that and to, but if you’re not taking care of yourself, and you’re not healthy, how are you going to take care of your baby, which is also guilt, by the way. You’re kind of hitting them with guilt. And then you want to add empathy, you know, oh, man, we understand how hard it is. But with these with just 10 minutes a day, we can completely change your life, and you can be feeling good and taking care of your family. And, you know, see how the story changes versus the unrelenting standard story and the type of product you’re trying to sell.


Yes, fascinating. I could probably talk about this for the next 12 hours. Listen, people need to go to sleep sometimes.


Next time next copy chief live, we can do it.


I don’t know, I don’t know if we I don’t know if we’ve made the cut on the stage. So at this point, we need to look to wrap up. So I’d love it. If you could share one small action step that the audience can take away and implement right after the show. Is there a single piece of homework you could recommend that’s going to help people boost their conversions or fix their leaky funnels?


Yeah, let’s see. So there’s a quite a ways, quite a few things you could do with that. I think if you’ve got a funnel, where the front end product is selling, but you’re not selling a lot of the upsell, or the back end product, really dig into that. Start thinking, is this a good product? And if it is, what do I need to change on the copy to make it sell? Or do I need to change the product, the best way to do that start talking to people who bought your product, find out why they didn’t take the upsell. You have to say if you just don’t know where you’re losing people, get someone on Fiverr to help you out or Upwork and get the analytics on your your funnel, get the Facebook pixels on your funnel, have someone show you and help you find out where you’re losing people. You can also download like free products like hot jar that will show you heat maps of where your customers are going on your funnel and you can see where they’re leaving your funnel. So those are all great things you can do but if you can just really get to know your avatars and and find out why they’re making their decisions then you’re you’re naturally going to start writing better copy


and definitely more people need to get their their prospects and their buyers on the phone. Because you can you can if you what I find is if you ask a really simple question and then just shut up then people like to fill the holes when we’ve worked right? And they’ll just tell you stuff and it’s amazing and some of the stuff that comes out of those conversations you just think wow I don’t know if I will tell it a stranger that stuff but


people do. It is crazy what people will start telling you it’s fun just for that part, you know.

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